Rediscovering Chico Da Silva's Amazon Art

Jeppe Curth 0:00

Hi and welcome to the Collector's Edge for Nordic Art Partners . In today's episode we will talk about the work and the career of Chico da Silva , a Brazilian artist largely forgotten , who is now enjoying a significant renaissance in his reputation . Let's get started .

Nicholas Robinson 0:17

It is with Alex Rotter , at 400 million Selling here at Christie's 400 million dollars is the bid and the piece is sold . We've all heard about it . Sometimes it's front page news Important works of art are being sold for incredible sums of money , but can you get involved and become a part of the exclusive club yourself , and how do you get started while avoiding buying the wrong things ? That's exactly what this podcast is about . This is the Collector's Edge from Nordic Art Partners , a podcast for those of you interested in the mechanics of the art industry , want advice about putting money into art , or simply want to buy something for your walls , to beautify your surroundings . Whatever your objectives , it is possible to put money into art wisely , to be considered , thoughtful and well informed in your choices and actions . Welcome to the art of collecting with an eye for curated beauty and practical value .

Jeppe Curth 1:23

Hi Nick welcome , hello , jeppe thank you , Nicholas Robertson , a contemporary art expert with more than 25 years of experience . Nick has worked in London and was in New York for 20 years , and more recently in Copenhagen . He has worked in the auction industry and was a gallerist in Manhattan for many years . Worked in the auction industry and was a gallerist in Manhattan for many years . For the last decade , he has focused on heavily resource-based acquisitions for his family portfolio , for private high net worth clients , family offices and fine art investment funds . So we're going to talk about Chico de Silva , also just called Chico , I guess Francisco .

Nicholas Robinson 2:04

Chico de Silva . Yeah , I justico , I guess , uh , today Francisco , Francisco Chico de Silva .

Jeppe Curth 2:06

Yeah , just pronounce it as Chico , is that okay ?

Nicholas Robinson 2:08

that's his how he's commonly known . Yes , good .

Jeppe Curth 2:12

So for the last , you can say for the last 12 months , it's been a quite crazy ride . Uh , following him and just to try to understand , could we maybe just take a step back and ask ourselves the question who is chico de silva ?

Nicholas Robinson 2:28

yeah well , chico de silva was a brazilian artist who came to prominence in the 1960s , the son of a peruvian indian and brazilian woman Born . There are some doubts as to his birth date , but the common consensus is around 1910 . And he died in 1985 , largely in obscurity and probably destitution . So his heyday , if you like , was in in the 1960s , somewhat in the 1970s , um , but he was working uh record show . He was working as early as the 1940s makes sense .

Jeppe Curth 3:15

That's who he is and he's no longer with us , but it also came to our attention like 12 months ago , right why ? Why haven't you heard so much about him before ?

Nicholas Robinson 3:24

um , it's difficult to say . I mean , I think that the art world , the art market , is always on the lookout for interesting things from history that have been overlooked for whatever reason . And you know , there are certain attitudes in the art world now that embrace a much wider church , a much broader church of practices also from different ethnicities , geographical areas that maybe have not previously been included in the traditional canon of art history . So there's appeal to discover new things , and there's appeal to discover new things that already have some kind of compelling story attached to them , but of course they also have to be of a , you know , they have to be qualitatively interesting . They have to , they have to be good art , interesting art , original , unique art , um , that stands up by itself . And then , of course , if you have these other narratives and compelling information attached to these artists , then , you know , then there starts to be a bigger picture that becomes interesting .

Jeppe Curth 4:46

Thanks , nick . So the last 12 months have been really good for Chico . I guess we could say quite by museums had a lot of good exhibition . But could we again take a step back and try to describe his works and these Amazon creatures ?

Nicholas Robinson 5:07

try to describe his works and these amazon creatures . Um , his work focuses on the sort of myths and legends of um amazonian culture . So we see a lot of fictitious , fantastical creatures related to life in the amazon , life in the rainforest , we see birds , we see fish , we see the food chain in nature . These works were often executed on somewhat cheap materials , but he was introduced to gouache and tempera by a Swiss artist who was traveling in Brazil , by a Swiss artist who was traveling in Brazil , and this is another sort of side note which maybe is a little interesting to note .

Nicholas Robinson 5:50

But when he was discovered by this Swiss gentleman , chablot was his name Chablot championed his work and assisted Chico in getting into some exhibition , some galleries in Brazil , some opportunities to exhibit his work in the West , and this culminated in Chico representing Brazil in the 1966 Venice Biennale , for which he was given a special mention , a special commendation , so in an international context , and I guess we joke about Biennale calling it the Olympics of the art world , but he garnered genuine international attention in this forum in 1966 . So anyway , we have this very exotic um uh language of creatures , we have the works executed in this sort of indigenous , sort of naive style , but we have the work executed in this very sort of meticulous , traditionally Western medium . Uh , gouache and tempera , um , uh , yeah .

Jeppe Curth 7:06

Okay , so they're deeply rooted in amazon they are .

Nicholas Robinson 7:09

I mean , they look very exotic . They look like a fantastic array of creatures chasing and eating other creatures okay , and and does the painting tell us a story ?

Nicholas Robinson 7:20

well , I mean , you said something about the food chain carefully , because I also look at this kind of culture through the lens of my own experience .

Nicholas Robinson 7:46

And when Chablot was traveling in Brazil and when he was bringing Chico to prominence , he was describing him as this sort of local Indian , this naive painter , and I think that we can't ignore the fact that there's a certain sort of colonialism , uh , at play here , um , with the championing of this works , especially in the 1960s , especially in the way it was talked about and presented to western audiences . And when we look at it , look at it today , you know we , we look at it as almost a new category of art being brought into the mainstream art market . And so , you know , we look at it with the eyes that are influenced by the things that we've grown up seeing , the things that we're most familiar with in museums and galleries . But but you know , we have to , we have to , we have to try and I don't know , be careful of this more to try and I don't know be careful of this more patronizing aspect , I suppose .

Jeppe Curth 8:49

Okay , so , the works are , I guess , deeply rooted in Chico's own visual culture . Of course , I suppose it's an aesthetic we are a bit unfamiliar with . Also , when we look at the works , what are we most looking for ? Are there any or some specific features that his best works have in common , and is this what the market's recognizing ?

Nicholas Robinson 9:18

Yes , there are some recurring motifs . We see lots of birds , fantastic birds with very sharp beaks , um , very uh , aggressive talons , um , often chasing after smaller birds . Or fish . Um , we see , we see a lot of fish um motifs large fish with wide open mouths with very sharp teeth , most often chasing consuming other fish , insects , et cetera , et cetera . These depictions are always stylized and , I think , not of any specific kind of fish , so they're not literal . Um . And then we see more completely made up creatures , um , where we see fantastical sort of dragons and lizards and these kinds of things . But often the the way these animals are rendered , the kinds of decorative patterns we see on their bodies , the way the open mouth and the teeth are depicted and the sort of wide-eyed look that they have . These often from one painting to another . These creatures all have these kinds of features in common , and Chico's work went through various stages .

Nicholas Robinson 10:38

I mean his works that are perhaps now becoming a little more prized are works that were executed in gouache on paper throughout the 1960s and most often mounted on wood , and these have a certain kind of pictorial space . There's a sort of a swirling , stippled painterly patterns around the figures . There's quite a lot of breathing room around the figures themselves . Often they're sort of surrounding a tree where they're trying to eat things from the tree or eat each other , and this is a sort of a category of work that's emerging as something that people are really looking to . And then later in the 1960s and throughout the 1970s , the paintings became much more colourful , painted on canvas instead of paper , and often much more vibrant colours , much brighter , solid coloured backgrounds .

Jeppe Curth 11:41

So they have a slightly different characteristic stylistically as as they evolved so over the last 12 months or so , or maybe going back a bit farther than that , we have been buying quite a significant number of works by Chico , learning as we go to some extent . How do you advise someone about Chico's works , especially since many will never have seen something like this before ?

Nicholas Robinson 12:24

Well , I mean , we buy them . We buy them because we like them , we respond very strongly to them and we see the innate quality in them , I think . But I think it would be disingenuous to say that we , you know , we we buy them just because we love them . There's lots of things in the world that look great , that have interesting properties , that one could spend money on , um , but , you course , when you have an artist , um who's you know , you , you could say that Chico is a , is a historic artist who's been rediscovered . But essentially , the market for Chico that we have now is , is a , is a new market . For all intents and purposes , it's one that did not exist before . His work , you know , is now regularly trading at auction and that's because his work has gained some traction , it's gained a following , and it's only gained a following because there are a number of prominent galleries that have now been taking up the mantle to push Chico's work into a mainstream consciousness . So we have David Kordansky , who , of course , is a very reputable gallery , based primarily in Los Angeles but has a gallery in New York

Global Interest in Chico De Silva

Nicholas Robinson 13:51

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Nicholas Robinson 13:51

The first major Chico show , if you like , in a commercial sense , was in his gallery in New York . He had previously taken one or two paintings to the art fairs in the summer autumn , uh , in the autumn of 2023 . Um , and then the gallery exhibition was the the first sort of major thing that started to propel attention to a new level . Um , further to that , uh , there have been a few isolated uh paintings come up at auction , some of which have done quite well , some of which have a little bit fallen between the cracks just because the appetite is not so evolved or developed yet for his work . Subsequently , there's been an exhibition by a Belgian dealer who had a solo booth of Chico's work that was very well presented with works of very high quality , at Art Genève in Geneva . And then , laterally , there's been an exhibition at Massimo Di Carlo , who has shown Chico's works in his Paris space , and the last , most recent exhibition is with a gallery called Bank , which is a very nice Basel exhibiting gallery based in Shanghai , and they've also done a Chico de Silva exhibition .

Nicholas Robinson 15:13

So we look at this cross-section of exhibiting galleries and we see a deep interest and a deep appetite across multiple major markets . In the Americas , with Kordansky he has a high profile and a big reach . Massimo Di Carlo in Europe is a big , big gallery with a powerful brand , if you will , and a gravitas to also extend the reach and build a market . And then you know the gallery in Shanghai is less noted and less established than those two that I've mentioned . Um , but also a good , a good place and something that builds credibility , builds awareness , and presumably they also have a collecting reach in Asia . So when you see this depth of collecting across these markets , plus a burgeoning awareness even in Sao Paulo , which is the sort of center of the Chico market in Brazil , then you can say that you know , it's not just a small , isolated pocket of interest , it's a deep , wide interest globally .

Jeppe Curth 16:24

Okay , but you can also easily say that there's no doubt that Chico have a quite unique position they've had for many years in Brazilian art history . So I mean , it's also quite interesting that from 12 months ago there was no exhibition in a global scale of Chico , and now I guess he is all over the place , or many places anyway . Do you see his legacy like influence the global contemporary artists in the market we have right now ?

Nicholas Robinson 17:01

I mean I think it's a bit too soon to say I mean , you know we can't . There's information , visual information , everywhere these days and , and I suppose you know , things don't get made in a vacuum and the more things that artists see and absorb , the more likely they are to somehow recycle those things , consciously or unconsciously . I mean , I don't see , you know , chico , like work sort of populating the , the , the market . But we've seen in the recent past figurative work that's shown very lush , exotic landscape . Um , obviously , you know there's a there's a strong interest in in nature , what with the climate problems that we've had and that we continue to have and that somehow remain unaddressed .

Nicholas Robinson 17:49

I mean , I think obviously nature has always been a big inspiration for artists , going back , well , going back hundreds of years . You know we see the natural sublime in Romanticism , in German art and British art , landscape art in the 18th and 19th centuries . You know we see strong feelings of nature , the power of nature , even in abstract expressionist painters . I mean , I think it's always been there . So yeah , I mean Chico's work is a very distinctive body of work that was consistent over 20 , 30 years and there's a number of paintings obviously that are out there , that are now finding their way , being sort of recycled into the market . Obviously , when an artist is uh rediscovered and and experiences a building market where , where the prices are you know vastly more than they were only a relatively short time ago , then then you have sellers who are kind of keen to take their opportunity , if you like , to get money that previously was impossible for them to think that they could get .

Jeppe Curth 19:06

Well , you said that he had been exhibited in the Venice Biennale in 1966 , so it was almost 60 years ago . Yes , is he represented by other ?

Nicholas Robinson 19:15

institutions . Yes , I mean his work is in a number of very prominent museums . There was a very interesting survey exhibition last year in the Pinacoteca in Sao Paulo , and important works by Chico have been acquired by the Tate , by the Guggenheim and the Pompidou . And just last month the Pompidou acquired two more gouaches , and this again these are of that 60s type that I referred to earlier , gouache on paper mounted on a wooden board . So of course his works now are being quite hungrily absorbed into these powerful Western institutions , and that only helps to substantiate a sense of confidence in in the work so in november last year a new auction record for chico's work was hammered at sotheby's in new york on the 14th november , actually for 330 000 new,000 new record .

Value and Potential of Chico's Work

Jeppe Curth 20:42

Um , if we send in a broader context of buying , collecting art , how do you think how does a Chico's work stand in terms of value , appreciation and potential in in in the market right now ?

Nicholas Robinson 20:56

Well , I mean , I think that was a you know in in many , in many markets and and the art market is no exception a you know in many markets and the art market is no exception . You know , timing is key and this was a sort of a perfect synergy of factors , including the contemporaneous Kordansky show . You know , kordansky is an important gallery with a fantastic roster of artists and a real track record in identifying and building markets for interesting things . And this particular painting that was sold for this price was a painting that had been exhibited at the Venice Biennale . So it was absolutely the most sort of prestigious work , um , by Chico that could have come to the market at this time , um , and it was , uh , in the same collection , an important collection in Chicago , um , and it had been in the same collection since 1966 . Um , so you know , it was not only was it the the best example of Chico's work that could have been offered for sale , it was also completely fresh to the market and a and a very , maybe unique opportunity to to acquire this seminal example of Chico's work . So that's , that's one one thing . Not only that , it was a very large painting and these large paintings , obviously for paintings very big , it's worth more than if it's very small . But these very large paintings are relatively rare .

Nicholas Robinson 22:25

We see lots of works by Chico that are 60 , 70 , 80 , even 90 centimetres , maybe a little bit less in this sort of one metre size , but lots of paintings that are 60 , 70 centimetres in size and typically these galleries that I've mentioned are selling these paintings for somewhere around 50 , $60,000 euros . Um , that's the , that's the market price . Um , when they have sold at auction they've been selling , you know , anywhere from sort of 30 to $70,000 to 70 000 . So you know a much bigger plus or minus range relative to this quite strict pricing structure that you know these galleries independently collectively , I mean , I think independently have determined , and I think you know they're all sticking to this , this price that kordansky has set , because you know the , the , the key to building a market is to consistently adhere to a price um and to , to , to , you know , to ensure that they don't go out into the , into the world , unless that's the price Um . You know if , if , if , the works are vetted carefully for condition and authenticity then , I think you know they're good , good things to buy .

Nicholas Robinson 23:48

I think it's possible to buy them for less , um , if you scour auctions , especially auctions in Brazil . But of course , then you , you know you have to . You have to deal with dealing with dealing with a business in Brazil . You know authentication , who's been responsible for that ? You know all of these kinds of things . Are you able to check out the condition ? Probably not . It's a little bit more of a leap of faith . Say , the market premium price from Kordansky or Massimo Toccarolo , for instance . You know , you , you presumably buying the safety of all of those things already having having been done for you , um also because we have seen some fake works out there .

Nicholas Robinson 24:33

Yeah , we've seen some fake works . Um , yeah , and you know there's a slightly different set of criteria . I suppose that we apply to the term fakes , at least in this particular context . There are some overt forgeries where people are attempting to copy a Chico type work or make something ostensibly in his style that they then try and pass off as an authentic Chico de Silva painting . But there are also other works sort of related to Chico and his production , made in the region at the time where there was a kind of a different attitude towards fakes .

Nicholas Robinson 25:17

Obviously , you know , we're not proposing that similar or related works are the same or equivalent to Chico's paintings , but , um , just to sort of dive into the nuance of this question , um , when Chico was in his pomp in the late sixties and seventies , um , he was um , successful , very commercially successful , selling paintings , uh , selling paintings to , you know , to the collecting classes of Brazil . And he had a studio , a production facility that was making paintings . There's the exhibition at the Pinacoteca in Sao Paulo addressed this , they call it the Pirambu School and there were , I think , four or five artists that that constituted the members of his studio and each of them made different contributions to the evolution of Chico Starr , some of them painted at his direction , some of them innovated additions to the , to the style , to the repertoire of motifs that were being painted , um , and so now it's able to , you're able to , sort of pass some works , uh , from others as to whose hand is involved in making them . Ultimately , chico's signature was applied to these paintings , um , because they were paintings made in his studio . But this is simply akin to old master studio guild systems , whereby you would have a master who was responsible for producing the painting and was , you know , ultimately the author of the painting , but where you might have , let's say , rembrandt , responsible for painting the face , the eyes , the hands , the most expressive components of a painting . You would have other journeyman painters that specialized in different elements of painting . You would have somebody who would be a specialist in painting drapery of the clothes or the food and the tablecloth , or the landscape or the physical environment behind the people . All of these , all of these tasks were divided up in a division of labor according to different specializations , and you know , it's of course not quite the same in Chico's studio , but there are some parallels to this . And Chico and his colleagues , they also celebrated the communal nature of making these paintings . So what to them was a certain kind of cooperative collaboration , is sort of collegial um enthusiasm with which they were making these paintings .

Nicholas Robinson 27:54

Um , you know , in in the seventies , for instance , um Chablot made some unfortunate comments which cast aspersions on uh authenticity of Chico's work , because he was , you know , I don't know his , his motives for doing this , um , but but but his comments at least caused Chico great deal of despair and uh were significant catalyst for an already deteriorating mental and emotional state and a serious dependency on alcohol . So you know , when we look at Chico's paintings and we question their authenticity , there are certain things you have to bear in mind . There are certain elements of the works you need to interrogate . But if you do this , you know , mindful of these points that I've made , then you know you can arrive at . You know , mindful of these points that I've made , then you know you can arrive at , at , at you know the right conclusion , um , but I think if you are conscious of those things and you take care of making sure those criteria are properly satisfied , then you know buying work , um is , is a , is a sound thing . I mean , certainly the museum representation is something that's continuing and is , you know , looking very strong and probably there'll be some institutional exhibitions that we can look forward to , hopefully in interesting Western institutions that help to cement Chico's place and his reputation amongst these sort of great , you know , artists of the 20th century .

Nicholas Robinson 29:27

The interesting thing about his work , I think you know , I mean his work was highly praised by Andre Malraux in the 1960s . That's a sort of interesting point to make . That's a sort of interesting point to make . You know , there's always artists who are maybe a little bit bit of an outlier . I mean the prevailing trends in the 1960s .

Nicholas Robinson 29:50

You can look at pop art . You can look at minimalism art . You can look at the infancy of conceptual art , post-minimal conceptual art . You know , chico does not fit into any of those boxes . His work is much more in this expressive trajectory . Um , you know , you can look at artists in the early 20th century like henry russo , who was known as a le douanier or the customs officer . He was a self-taught artist who made these very exotic scenes and his work was was adored by the avant-garde . Picasso thought his work was spectacular , the surrealists thought his work was spectacular and he was a big inspiration to them . And you know so Chico is an artist who plows this very singular furrow for himself , is an artist who , because of these unique qualities , is able to appeal in a very broad way .

Jeppe Curth 30:41

Thanks , nick . Nick , some interesting points of reference . Maybe also people listening here would be interesting to dive a bit more into his works . Um , first thing , we maybe see if it's something they like to look at . Uh , these creatures , amazon creatures , um , but what , what ? What can you do ? If you want a deep dive into the Chico works , what would you recommend ?

Nicholas Robinson 31:07

Well , I mean , I think that , like most people , when you're looking to try and learn something new , you look online and you search and you see what comes up . And I think that you know , if you're interested in seeing a number of examples of the work and then reading some contextual information about it , then look at Kordansky's site , look at Massimo Di Carlo's site and you can read the sort of potted history that these galleries have put together . There's a couple of really great galleries in Brazil that have got interesting texts about the artists . If you look at there's a gallery called Galatea , there's a gallery called Gomide . All of these galleries have got information that you can absorb if you wish to see , see some Um , and then you know you'll find you'll find information related to his institutional shows , the Pinacoteca .

Nicholas Robinson 32:08

You know you can search online in the museums I've mentioned Pompidou , tate , guggenheim , they'll all . They'll all record the acquisitions and have probably some information about about the work and have probably some information about the work . If you're interested in buying work , then you can look on Artsy , which is the leading online marketplace for art , for modern , contemporary art , and you'll see a number of examples there . You can inquire after them , you'll find . Maybe there's not so much available and you'll find that they're typically 50 , 60,000 bucks . Um , you know , I mean we , we , we carry an inventory of works . If , if you're interested in in in finding more out about what we have , then you're welcome . Welcome to reach out to us too , right ?

Jeppe Curth 32:55

Yeah , of course . And are we ? Are we finished buying Chico works ?

Nicholas Robinson 32:58

um , probably not . I , I think that you know , um , I mean , we're , we're , we're art dealers , of course . So you know , we , we always have to be opportunistic a little about our acquisition price . Um , it's getting much harder to find them . The ones that are coming our way are fewer and farther between and typically more expensive . But I think you know , I mean , all being well , we'll , we'll continue to buy , to buy Chico works , and we'll continue to encourage people to look seriously at them as as a really interesting thing to acquire thank you for the conversation , nick , and thank you for letting us into the world of chico .

Nicholas Robinson 33:55

Yeah , it's an interesting world . You should um dive into it , um , although you should avoid the sharp teeth of the fish make sense .

Jeppe Curth 34:05

Well , if you have anything , any question , if you want to buy or sell some arts , yours , welcome to contact me at jeppe at nordic art partnerscom , and thank you for this time .