Jeppe Curth: 0:00

Hi and welcome to the Collector's Edge from Nordic Art Partners. In this episode we will discuss the work and career of Salvo, an Italian artist who continues to grow in popularity and reputation. With me today, as usual, is our art expert, Nicolas Robinson, and me your host, Jeppe Kort. It is with Alex Rotter at 400 million Selling here at Christie's $400 million is the bid and the piece is sold.

Nicholas Robinson: 0:29

We've all heard about it. Sometimes it's front-page news. Important works of art are being sold for incredible sums of money, but can you get involved and become a part of the exclusive club yourself, and how do you get started while avoiding buying the wrong things? That's exactly what this podcast is about. This is the Collector's Edge from Nordic Art Partners, a podcast for those of you interested in the mechanics of the art industry, want advice about putting money into art, or simply want to buy something for your walls, to beautify your surroundings. Whatever your objectives, it is possible to put money into art wisely, to be considered, thoughtful and well informed in your choices and actions. Welcome to the art of collecting with an eye for curated beauty and practical value, and practical value, Hi Nick.

Nicholas Robinson: 1:27

Hi, jeppe, good day. I just want to congratulate you. That was an impeccable introduction that you managed to do in a single take, thank you.

Jeppe Curth: 1:38

We're doing better and better in this podcasting.

Nicholas Robinson: 1:39

I guess we are. How are you doing Good? Very well, thank you you.

Jeppe Curth: 1:43

Yeah, I'm well. I'm looking forward to this episode where we're going to talk about Salvo.

Nicholas Robinson: 1:49

Yes, we'll talk about Salvo, one of our favorites.

Jeppe Curth: 1:51

Yes, indeed, and maybe we should start by you describing who is Salvo.

Nicholas Robinson: 1:58

Of course, salvo was an Italian artist, born Salvatore Mangione in 1947. And the key period in his life began in the late 1960s 1968, when he moved to Turin and became associated with artists of the Arte Povera movement, especially Alighiero Boetti, mario Mertz and Giuseppe Penone. All of these artists were in the orbit of the Genenzo Sperone Gallery and he became very close with them. He shared a studio with Boetti until 1971, and his works of this themes of history, identity and a lot of his works from this period show a sort of collaborative cross-pollination with Boetti's works of this period, boetti's works of this period.

Nicholas Robinson: 3:22

In 1969, he became also involved with American conceptual artists such as Joseph Kassuth, robert Barry, Sol LeWitt, and this early period also solidified some important relationships with some key people in the art world and the art market of this time. Some key people in the art world and the art market of this time. Obviously, we've already mentioned Genenzo Sperone, but he came into contact with the highly influential German dealer Paul Mainz in Cologne, and he also met with and exhibited with Yvon Lambert in Paris and John Weber in New York, all of whom were highly important figures in the championing of post-minimal conceptual art. So that's the basic background of who he is.

Jeppe Curth: 4:13

Thank you, Nick. Well, we also talk about Salvo today because we love his work. Could you describe?

Nicholas Robinson: 4:20

his works for us Absolutely. Describe his works for us Absolutely. Salvo's painterly evolution was a sort of a slow burn throughout the course of the 1970s. He began painting in 1973, at which point he decided to abandon, for the most part, the conceptual, word-based, text-based works, and he would never abandon this choice or go back from this decision. And then, around 1976, he started painting the very first works that we recognize as the sort of proto-Salvo works that we've come to know today, as the sort of proto salvo works, um, that we've come to know today, and and the works that in fact form the bedrock of his, of his, of his current reputation and his, his place within the market, uh, if you like. But in 1976, he started painting these mythological scenes, engaging in a dialogue with um, with, with the old masters, particularly of the early Renaissance. His works would have an affinity with artists like Piero della Francesca, paolo Uccello. They were history paintings showing figures on horses amidst ruins, columns and various, uh, sort of capricci of classical antiquity, so fictitious scenes of ruins, um, and things like this, um.

Nicholas Robinson: 5:56

And then in 1979, we see the very first of what would become his mature style throughout the 80s, and this saw the development of his key aesthetic, that being trees and vegetation, very much inspired by the works of Giotto, one of the key artists at the beginning of the Italian Renaissance. So Salvo had a very clear conception of the artist, the role of the artist and how the artist, as this sort of genius, creative force, had a very specific role within culture, whereby artistic practice was primarily to mediate between antiquity and modernity. So Salvo would see himself and other artists as a conduit to bring many of these classical ideals into the present and a way for the artist to be relevant. And then, throughout the 1980s and then throughout the 1980s, he painted various iterations of these landscape scenes. The people at the end of the 70s were stripped away and he painted churches, monasteries, classical buildings, various ancient Italian structures that were highly recognizable as the archetypes of Italian medieval architecture Churches, ecclesiastical buildings and all the features associated with them Arcaded cloisters, towers, etc. And then, throughout the 80s, he became very sort of distilled into a few different types of landscape painting.

Nicholas Robinson: 7:46

He lived in Turin, so he painted lots of landscapes in the hillsides of Piedmont. These are typically known as the valley works, consisting of little hamlets, clusters of farmhouses, sylvan hillsides, mountains, very idealized, very densely saturated in color, rich and lush, often with very beautiful cotton, candy trees and clouds, and the main idea behind this was to portray the complexities of light and the passage of time. The paintings are very serene, they're very still and they, you know, they crystallize real and remembered passages of landscape into this profound meditation on the passing of time. Indeed, many of the works were named after times of day, months or seasons, or some combination of these. So he painted these valleys, painted them at night, known as the noturnos.

Nicholas Robinson: 8:55

He painted seascapes, many in a town in Calabria called San Nicola, arkela, where he would visit. He painted scenes from the city. He painted classical ruins and he also painted a group of paintings called the Ottomania paintings. In the mid to late 80s, he traveled to Bosnia-Herzegovina and he painted a group of paintings showing the archetypes of Islamic architecture mosques, minarets, etc. Etc. So this is, you know, a broad summary of what we've come to look for when we look at his work.

Jeppe Curth: 9:37

Thanks, Nick. Are there any particular works by Selva you believe are essential for understanding his impact on art generally?

Nicholas Robinson: 9:45

works by Selva you believe are essential for understanding his impact on art generally. Well, I think that his mature style, you know there's a reason why it's become very, very popular. They're extremely beautiful, they're very charming, they're very idyllic and I think that when you see the best combination of these elements, you see, you know, beautiful light, you see beautiful rich greens in the landscape, you see the long shadows from the trees. You know, you feel, you feel that you're in a timeless landscape, a landscape that has that has not changed, that is enduring and that has certain sort of universal qualities. So these are the kinds of things, and you know, the works variously have mountains, church spires, the trees, the clouds that I mentioned. We see beautiful sunrises, sunsets, we see the moon high in the sky with clouds passing in front. And you know, salvo is a master at depicting light, the effect of light at different times of the day, different seasons. So any painting that really embodies these qualities is, you know, a very desirable thing.

Jeppe Curth: 11:06

And there's also that same desire that collectors have for the same type of works.

Nicholas Robinson: 11:11

Yes, absolutely, I mean, you know, the very best of these are the ones that are becoming most sought after. You know, for a long time Salvo sort of lapsed into somewhat obscure reputation, reputationally speaking, even though he had a long and consistent and well regarded career. But the works, you know, the works are very pretty and people become very suspicious of things that are overtly beautiful, of things that are overtly beautiful. Somehow that can be a byword sometimes for lacking substance. But of course it was largely unknown to most passing observers that Salvo had this very sort of rigorous conceptual grounding in the Italian avant-garde of the late 60s and early 1970s and that his determination to continue portraying these scenes, these passages of light and time within the landscape, you know, people would very easily maybe miss the conceptual underpinning for these works. In any event, his work is becoming recognized again and there's been some.

Nicholas Robinson: 12:31

There's an artist, nicholas Party, who's become a very big star within the art world, whose most successful paintings sell for millions of dollars and his works bear a superficial similarity to Salvo.

Nicholas Robinson: 12:47

He's, uh, he's gone on record as saying that he's been very inspired by um Salvo, very indebted to his, his work and his aesthetic, and and there have been some exhibitions where the where works by the two artists have been juxtaposed alongside each other in quite an interesting way. So the contemporary artists like Partey and like some other artists who paint in these very sort of rich, stylized landscape style works, you know people see the popularity of these artists, they see the large prices that these artists' works are achieving in gallery exhibitions, in auctions, and it's you know, it's a very easy step to start to look at the antecedents for some of these artists' works and to see an artist like Salvo. You know these artists' works would not be possible without Salvo's work and the example that he set. So you know it becomes very, very much a part of an ongoing dialogue to try and experience a revival of interest. People begin to link the work of modern and contemporary artists to their work. They trace the contemporary artists back to the artists who have inspired them.

Jeppe Curth: 14:34

Yes, I do think we also can agree that he had some. He have had some really good years last couple of years where he also, I believe, had had I think it was last year a new auction record of more than 1.1 million dollars for for two meter by three 30 meter worker, I guess it was um. Is this you know, collectors today? Going back in history and connect the dots in terms of some of the new artists, contemporary artists, and connecting with Salvo?

Nicholas Robinson: 15:10

Yes and no. I mean obviously it's. It's not much of a stretch to see a large painting by Nicholas Party achieve, let's say, four million dollars, for example, and then see that a Salvo painting, you know, which, you know, not so long ago was worth a hundred thousand dollars. And you know things like that from a very rational perspective they don't make much sense. So people are always interested in looking for new things because there's already a compelling and interesting narrative and story that has brought this artist kind of full circle back into contemporary relevance. So it's like a new market for something that's somehow still established in some way and that makes a lot of sense. Still established in some way and that makes a lot of sense. You know, um Salvo's work is in is in many museums in Germany, in Italy, in the United States. His work is in um is in MoMA in the Walker Art Center, um he he participated in Documenta and several editions of the Venice Biennale. I mean, he's a, he's an important artist, um, and yet his, the way his work was valued by the market, was not um, was did not have that sort of equivalency with, with his status Um. So obviously people see this and they start to think that you know something interesting can be done to to breathe life in into this market Um but a few years ago his work was exhibited um by Barbara Gladstone in New York, and obviously this is a fantastic gallery um who has a long and illustrious track record with painters um as well as artists working in other media Um but she she's done some extremely good work with with Salvo Um. It's my understanding that that she collaborates closely with the Archivio Salvo, which is the artist's archive and estate that manages all of his um authentication, all of the um I guess uh exhibition planning in order to protect his, his legacy and uh and reputation Um so so, so Gladstone has been key. She's exhibited more recently um a show of his of his uh ruins, his classical ruins, a show of his of his uh ruins, his classical ruins, uh paintings in um her Brussels gallery Um. There's a gallery in Milan that worked with Salvo at the end of his life. He died in 2015.

Nicholas Robinson: 18:17

Um Masolini um they're in in Milan and they've done a lot with bringing his work to art fairs and bringing his work much more into a current consciousness Um. There's a really nice gallery in Milan, depart um uh run by uh Antonio Adamiano. He's a real scholar of Salvo's work and he's very devotedly um been pushing and pushing and pushing the work Um. Massimiliano Bugno, in Venice, who worked with Salvo for many, many years during his life um is very, has a very sophisticated and nuanced knowledge of the artists, various bodies of work um and always has fantastic, fantastic works and exhibitions Um. So you know, there's there's a growing awareness of the work within the market and then once that awareness develops and you start seeing the works cropping up at auction um, and then it gathers a momentum of its own Um, you know, all of a sudden, salvo is an art star all over again posthumously. So, yes, you know, we see all of these factors coalescing to create a particular moment.

Nicholas Robinson: 19:32

Unfortunately, there have been too many paintings coming up for auction because there's been a sort of a meteoric price rise and Salvo was, you know, he he made quite a lot of paintings um, and he's working consistently for, you know, 30 odd years Um. So so you know, there are, there are paintings that are really kind of coming out of the woodwork, selling at auctions in London, new York, in provincial auction houses up and down Italy, in Hong Kong, I mean. There's a lot of them, um, and you know the prices are a little bit erratic. Sometimes these works, you know, don't really garner attention just because the auction is a small auction. Um, the works are quite erratic qualitatively.

Nicholas Robinson: 20:21

So you know, there's there's always reasons why some things make big prices, some things makes more prices and sometimes there's a sequence of mediocre prices just because there's too much material, um, that the market is expected to absorb within any given period of time. So you know, we're seeing what we're seeing is we're seeing a market in the process of sorting itself out. But, that being said, the prices now are at least double, maybe three times, what they were this time two years ago. So there've been some significant changes. And, like I said, this large painting, or the one that you referenced, that sold for a million plus, you know there wasn't. That would have been $125,000 not so long ago. So there've been some significant changes in the price and now they're routinely fetching pretty handsome sums.

Jeppe Curth: 21:21

Okay, so when considering Salvo's work for acquisition, what aspect do you believe are the most compelling from an art advisor perspective?

Nicholas Robinson: 21:31

Well, you know, I think the first thing to say, which is relevant for any artist whose work you would consider, is is get to know the works and find the best example that you can for the budget that you have. I mean, I would always say you know, stretch and buy something better. Um, I think also that a good rule of thumb would be to buy something that is tiny bit bigger, and when I say that I mean anything 60 to 70 centimeters in one of the dimensions. Anything of that scale and larger would be a good idea. Just because there are, they start to get a little bit fewer, get a little bit fewer Um. You know the very large paintings. There's not many of those Um. And then there's a sort of a category which is maybe one and a half meters by two meters in size, and they're they're relatively scarce and they're they're can be quite expensive.

Nicholas Robinson: 22:30

Now, seven $800,000 euros Um, but then. But then after that you've got some paintings that are 1 meter 20, 1 meter 50, you know paintings of this scale which are still somewhat friendly for a domestic setting but still substantial. So I think that's a good idea. And then, of course, you know, the composition should reflect maybe the archetypes of his work that I've described earlier reflect, maybe, the archetypes of his work that I've described earlier. Um, but it's possible to buy good examples of his work for 50, 60, $70,000. I mean, there's plenty of works coming up at auction beautiful, uh, sunset, drenched, seascapes, um, really nice works, um, and I I think that they're very reasonably priced for the quality and the importance that they have. Even still, so, it depends on your budget, because obviously, you know, accessibility is one of those things that is dependent on how much money you have to spend.

Jeppe Curth: 23:39

Well it, I guess it often comes down to money. But if we reflect a bit on Salvo's career, what do you see as his lasting legacy in the art world, and how does this influence your advice to clients?

Nicholas Robinson: 23:56

Well, I think that one of the things about Salvo is that he's, you know he's. He's a bit of an outlier. He started to become interested in painting before there was this great revival in painting at the end of the 1970s and throughout the 1980s. So he doesn't really fit into any particular box that prescribes an artist or artists in terms of adherence, adherence to a movement or or such Um, so. So, really, it's, it's, you know, he's a, he's a distinctive character who very singularly stuck to his ideals, um, and to the kinds of things that he wanted to do.

Nicholas Robinson: 24:39

I mean, there's enormous repetition in the scenes that he painted, you know, scenes of Santana, a small village in the foothills of the Alps, close outside, somewhat outside Turin, and close to the border with France. I mean he painted the same barn, the same tree, the same church spire, with a plowed fields and the mountains beyond. He painted this over and over again in the summertime, in the wintertime snow on the ground, moon in the sky. You know the, the, the, the, the lush promise of spring, the sort of faded grandeur of summer as it moves into early autumn. I mean, all of these, all of these repetitions, are exercises in conveying these, these, these, these key, key things that Salvo was seeking to communicate. So I think, you know, these paintings are very timeless paintings.

Nicholas Robinson: 25:37

I mean to to look at a sort of a maybe a similar yet very different artist. To look at the Italian artist Mirandi, for instance. You know he painted these very dry, still life paintings, very restful, very specific, somewhat limited palette of colors, and he did them over and over again. These vessels, this sense of stillness, and you know, his paintings are just instantly recognizable for this. You know, the Impressionist painter, henri Fantin Latour, who transitioned from the sort of academic school of the third quarter of the nuance of of light, the way, the way it catches on the surface of this, of these, these petals of this, of this foliage, um, you know, salvo is, is, is, is like this. He just encapsulates a certain um set of, uh, painterly expectations in terms of what you want to see, what you expect to see, and he does it over and over, and some examples of his work are better than others.

Jeppe Curth: 27:09

No-transcript so nick. Without diving too deeply into specifics, could you share how selfless work might fit into a well-created collection with from both the aesthetic and value?

Nicholas Robinson: 27:34

standpoint. Well, I mean, any collection is is. There's no such thing as a standardized collection. You know, people buy things for for various reasons. I mean, we buy his work, like many artists, because we, we admire it, we recognize a certain quality and we recognize a certain opportunity, because we believe that his work is underestimated and undervalued vis-a-vis so many other things that are out there, and we believe in the potential and the likelihood of his work to well continue to be sort of elevated into a status and a market recognition that is better than is currently the case.

Nicholas Robinson: 28:20

Um, and so I, you know many of the artists that we look to. You could, you could describe them, uh, in that, in that kind of way, in those sorts of terms. Um, you know, we, we like to be students of history, we like to do a deep dive, we like to to to research, we like to travel and get to know the context. Um, that informed these artists and the various protagonists that have been involved in, in, in bringing the artists back to the fore. Um, so, you know, does it fit in with, I mean, you know, Salvo's work is, it could fit in with all kinds of contemporary, contemporary painting.

Nicholas Robinson: 29:00

There's a aesthetically challenging um, in in the way that some things are that might might be harsh or or or might be difficult to understand visually. Um, so you know it's. It comes down to what are your objectives when you buy something. Do you want to buy something because you love it? You want to love it, you want to make good financial sense in terms of putting money into it, rather than maybe wasting money on something that might be overpriced or highly speculative. I mean, these are the kinds of objectives that we, that we go for, rather than any particular, you know, thematic, oratic or whatever kind of objectives that other people may have with their acquisitions or their collecting.

Jeppe Curth: 30:02

Yeah, as we normally say that there's enough things out there to buy, so it is possible and we should combine the two factors that we love it and it's a good thing to put money into. Maybe can you elaborate on the value position we have on Salvo that you just mentioned.

Nicholas Robinson: 30:21

Well, I mean, you know, I think that the paintings have been very inexpensive for a long time. I mean, the first Salvo paintings that we were buying were, you know, 12 and 15,000 euros, and equivalent paintings are now 60 and 70,000 euros. So of course it's. It's changed a lot in a in a relatively short space of time. But, um, you know, I don't, for me, I don't look at that price, uh, only in relation to Salvo. I look at that price in relation to other other things that one could buy out there in the market and I and I, you know, if it feels reasonable to me price-wise relative to those things, then then I feel inclined to continue buying or advising people that it's a sensible or safe or recommended thing for them to buy too.

Nicholas Robinson: 31:19

There's going to be a significant exhibition, the largest survey exhibition of Salvo's work since he died in 2015. That's going to take place at the Pinacoteca Agnelli, which is a division of the Agnelli Foundation, the industrialist family in Italy that have a long history of collecting and patronage and cultural leadership in Italy. So that's going to take place at the end of this year and run for about six months. So that's going to take place at the end of this year and run for about six months. I don't see people running out of interest in these works, and I just think that they're sufficiently interesting and beautiful that his work is established in a new way, at a newly elevated status, and I think it's going to continue. I don't think it's done so. That would be my feeling about the work and that's what would motivate me to continue to acquire his work.

Jeppe Curth: 32:27

Yeah, I totally agree, Nick. For someone looking to explore Salvo's work further, where might they start and how can this knowledge we just shared benefit them in their journey as an art collector?

Nicholas Robinson: 32:42

Well, look and learn. It's like, with so many things, coming to something from some position of knowledge and understanding is useful. You know, the works are very easy to look at and it's very easy to understand the various archetypes that he painted, be it the ruins, the mountain valleys, the, the seascapes, the, the. You know they're all of a clearly defined type. Um, if you wish to to to see many um, then you know you can go to the Archivia Salva website. They've got great biographical information, very detailed of course, um, and you can see lots of examples uh there on their website.

Nicholas Robinson: 33:36

Um, barbara Gladstone's website has got some really nice um uh installation images of some of the exhibitions that she has hosted. And then, and then, if you, if you search for Salvo review um art forum, um art forum has a great archive of um exhibition reviews going back 30 or 40 years. So you can, you can, you can read reviews of Salvo's historic exhibitions and you can see how the opinions of his work were uh at the time of writing. You can see how those opinions tally with more contemporary interpretations. And you know there's yeah, I mean there's a world of information online, just like so many things, so it's not difficult to delve into it in some detail.

Jeppe Curth: 34:30

Thank you, Nick. Really good insights. Do you think we missed anything? Anything you want to add?

Nicholas Robinson: 34:37

no, I don't think so. I mean, I seem to spend a lot of time listening to the sound of my own voice here what is?

Nicholas Robinson: 34:43

your personal favorite motif. Well, I think I really like the nocturnal works. I find there's a sort of a quietude in them that's really quite beautiful. It's not probably a typical choice, but I think that somehow, because there's less light in these paintings, definitively I think that what he does with such an economical use of light is so fantastic and so evocative that I just think that they really showcase his really exquisite abilities. Um, but, but there's so many. I mean his sunset paintings. You know I love the way he paints the trees in autumn with these lush oranges, uh, autumnal hues, um, his pink blossoms from the spring. I mean he's a great, great painter and I really encourage, just for sheer pleasure, just to really look at them as much as you can.

Jeppe Curth: 35:48

Thank you, nick. Last advice If you need any help buying selling art, if you need any help buying selling art, you're always welcome to contact us at jeppe at nordicartpartnerscom, and thank you for this time.